Ukraine

[theGenius]

lol give it some time, yeah im sure if you had given the brits some time they would have granted the U.S. their independence...

and IN THE US if people would have thrown molotovs and tried storming the whitehouse that would have been a freakin massacer.

 

[MikeK]

It's not about whether Ukraine government would have wanted to.... a legit government couldn't have said no....

if 95% of of crimea wants to join russia, let them. Just not while they have a gun pointed to their heads. they didnt have guns pointed at their heads. you should've sent observers instead of crying and playing with resolutions

Russia is making a clear point... "we're going to take this shit... and you're not going to do anything about it"

It has nothing to do with what the crimeans want. It has nothing to do with what the rest of the world wants except to spite them. It's about what putin and his cronies want.

And it's not about the Ukraine government waiting.... it's about the Ukraine government being set up and established before russia runs in and starts stealing territory. Government isn't even worked out yet!

 

[TheDude]

People wouldn't have thrown molotovs and stormed the whitehouse because here in america people have a voice.

And, no, Britain wouldn't have granted the USA their independence, despite a unanimous declaration of independence because Britain was ruled by a king..... ALSO not democracy.[DOUBLEPOST=1395078025][/DOUBLEPOST]Russia denied and i believe continues to deny the passage of UN observers. The vote was done hastily to avoid observers participation.

 

[MikeK]

Come on now. Go fill out a butthurt form and get drunk. None of us can change anything, no matter how loud you shout.

 

[TheDude]

Actually, like I posted with the article condeminng how the USA was responding to this issue, and like I posted with that report on the occupy movement from the collective law schools of ivy league and highly regard universities, as well as the occupy movement itself, as well as the civil rights movement, as well as the protests about war and the following reaction during the following election years...


shit DOES get done. Yes there is still evil, but there are GOOD people doing GOOD things. It's a constant battle.

 

[MikeK]

Or lets better get back to that dicussion on gallons of milk.

 

[TheDude]

Milk is bad 4 ur tummy. Except breast milk. We should all drink breast milk.[DOUBLEPOST=1395078339][/DOUBLEPOST]I believe there is a growing force of protestors in Russia? Yes?

I also believe the USA media is blowing it up. One report said 50,000, the police there said 3,000 (russian police. totally can be trusted... right? lolz). Definitely somewhere in between. Probably closer to 20,000. That's my guess.[DOUBLEPOST=1395078503][/DOUBLEPOST]The worst thing that could happen to america at this point is to go back to the militarized fear-state that the bush administration propagated and facilitated. That was when our leaders were most like Putin.

We can't have that. No more stupid wars. Less nukes. Less military spending.

But how to do that when if we spend less on our military, russia seizes the opportunity and starts scooping up more territory????? You should HEAR the reaction from hard conservatives here. They want to boost military action. Do military drills. Missile tests. Meet Putin where he is speaking. You think that will solve the problem? If we acted like Putin?

Just look at what Dick Cheney is saying (that evil bastard).

Shit on Obama all you want, but if this was still the Bush administration, we'd be at war right now.

 

[Kreubs]

By claiming that an amount of ethnic whoever lives in an area is to an argument of using military force on the other side of another country's border.

By that argument, Mexico has every right to invade the entire south-western US because ethnic Mexicans are being mistreated. If Mexico said that, you'd laugh your head off at them. Then why, pray tell, is it any different for Ukraine/Russia? Well, it's not.

 

[MikeK]

I also believe the USA media is blowing it up. One report said 50,000, the police there said 3,000 (russian police. totally can be trusted... right? lolz). Definitely somewhere in between. Probably closer to 20,000. That's my guess. A friend of mine went there, he said there were like 5k at that moment, no more than 10 in total.
Actually
1. The force of protests has been going down since 2012, I, personally, took part in one of those in 2012.
2. It's. really. none. of. your. fucking. business, sir.
But how to do that when if we spend less on our military, russia seizes the opportunity and starts scooping up more territory????? why it is ok for US to have military operations worldide, numerous times a year and not ok for Russia

Seriously. Go drink some breast milk.[DOUBLEPOST=1395078972][/DOUBLEPOST]Oh well, Im out.

 

[TheDude]

Well it was a wild guess on my part, like I said, as I was commenting on the large disparity between police reports (which are hard to trust even here in america) and media reports (which are hard to trust anywhere).

And the protests I was referring to were directly related to Russia's involvement in ukraine.

And it's NOT okay for the USA to have military operations worldwide. Who said it was okay?
However, one doesn't just snap their fingers and remove US involvement from the world. Like I said, the Bush administration precipitated a pile of SHIT for us to deal with for generations. I firmly believe it was that administration's goal to get thoroughly involved in military operations abroad for years to come, thus growing and funding the military industrial complex.

 

[theGenius]

Milk is bad 4 ur tummy. Except breast milk. We should all drink breast milk.[DOUBLEPOST=1395078339][/DOUBLEPOST]I believe there is a growing force of protestors in Russia? Yes?

I also believe the USA media is blowing it up. One report said 50,000, the police there said 3,000 (russian police. totally can be trusted... right? lolz). Definitely somewhere in between. Probably closer to 20,000. That's my guess.[DOUBLEPOST=1395078503][/DOUBLEPOST]The worst thing that could happen to america at this point is to go back to the militarized fear-state that the bush administration propagated and facilitated. That was when our leaders were most like Putin.

We can't have that. No more stupid wars. Less nukes. Less military spending.

But how to do that when if we spend less on our military, russia seizes the opportunity and starts scooping up more territory????? You should HEAR the reaction from hard conservatives here. They want to boost military action. Do military drills. Missile tests. Meet Putin where he is speaking. You think that will solve the problem? If we acted like Putin?

Just look at what Dick Cheney is saying (that evil bastard).

Shit on Obama all you want, but if this was still the Bush administration, we'd be at war right now.

yeah, and if it still was stalin there wouldnt be a ukraine right now.

obama is a complete dick on this situation.hypocrasy on the highest level, raping international law one day supporting a coup against the goverment, and then defending it the next day when it fits your interests saying you cant have a referendum without the "legit" goverment. althou i do not defend the russian intervention in crimea, it kinda seems like people are getting what they want in crimea thanks to russia now, ofcourse the U.S could never swallow their pride and admit that. obama needs to let this slide now, no point in reactivating the cold war!
i agree obama is way better then bush, but then again that doesnt really mean shit.

 

[TheDude]

It's not about pride.
Obama overstepping his bounds is not new, but I'd much rather have him doing it than putin. And don't take that as support for Obama. There is a growing (like currently growing) condemnation of Obama's executive power abuse, both domestically and internationally.<--------- to understand you'd have to look at ALL of the abuses and see what has been done with them. BTW, first thing obama did when he got into office was disband Bush's anti-terrorist black zones and interrogation techniques. That was overstepping his executive boundaries, but it was good, right? It's not all black and white.

However, the real arguments are coming from people who agree with some things and disagree with others, so it's hard for it to really gain traction in the media, or on forums like this, where it's either wholly support or wholly condemn.


And thank fucking god it's not still stalin.

 

[MikeK]

And thank fucking god it's not still stalin.

Mmm, something reasonable

 

[TheDude]

Well people need to understand that Obama is just the tip of the iceberg.
It would be nice to be able to point the finger at Obama and blame all our problems on him.
But that's simply a naive notion.

Like try and blame the stock market crash in 2008 on him. Right. They did try to. It was totally his fault right? Dont be an idiot. There are way bigger forces at play than Obama an what he wants to get done.

Wanna make a difference? Get out and get involved. Take to the streets. Don't join any bandwagons. Disagree with your friend and shut him down, even though he's your friend, if you disagree with his logic.

I mean, seriously. Evil is everywhere.

 

[theGenius]

It's not about pride.
Obama overstepping his bounds is not new, but I'd much rather have him doing it than putin. And don't take that as support for Obama. There is a growing (like currently growing) condemnation of Obama's executive power abuse, both domestically and internationally.<--------- to understand you'd have to look at ALL of the abuses and see what has been done with them. BTW, first thing obama did when he got into office was disband Bush's anti-terrorist black zones and interrogation techniques. That was overstepping his executive boundaries, but it was good, right? It's not all black and white.

However, the real arguments are coming from people who agree with some things and disagree with others, so it's hard for it to really gain traction in the media, or on forums like this, where it's either wholly support or wholly condemn.


And thank fucking god it's not still stalin.

i dont know if you are going to understand what i mean by this, but as soon as obama opens his mouth he acts like he is some kind of fucking god, and no matter what he says people will belive it and the international community will follow.

just look at him when he runs his line concerning ukraine throwing out the biggest hypocary ever:

i just get vibes of utter ignorance from him.

when listening to putin speak it sounds more down to earth and like he is actully communicating with people, explaining stuff. and not just throwing down shit on people like he is a higher form of human.

putin is certainly not on mission for humanity, but he just gives the impression like hes actully willing to take his time to investigate things and dicuss them on equal bases.

not sure if you gonna understand what i mean.

 

[TheDude]

I understand what u mean, but if you think obama doesn't weigh his words carefully, you are utterly mistaken.

That's where certain leaders will get you. Being a good orator doesn't mean you are smart, humane, or well-intentioned.

I also don't see the biggest hypocrisy ever in that statement.

It seems like you're thinking with your gut feelings.

I mean, I get those feelings to. If I went with my gut feelings I'd think the entire USA government was working with other seriously rich people in a big conspiracy to stay rich and fulfill their fucked up single-minded views of a GOOD human race.

However, it's good not to let my gut feelings take over.

However, what you're saying, I think, comes from this. Russia is isolating itself from the international community right now. Putin is acting as the little guy. He feels he IS the little guy. It's easy to get swept up to feel for the "underdog." However, the real underdog here is Ukraine and the Ukrainian people, and they are being utterly neglected in this whole affair.


How ironic.

 

[theGenius]

this is not just a gutfeeling,

and its the biggest hypocrasy because according to international law yanukovish is the legit goverment of the ukraine, and he helped fund the revolution wich also is against international law. but ones the goverment has changed and crimea has a referendum, he suddenly says according to international law you cant have a referendum without the ukrainien goverment (wich hasnt even been votet into power).

that and the fact that the us has a long history of abusing international law and using itz whenever it suits them.

thats why u see folks rippin up the un charter in the UN you know, there is a reason for that. ofcourse its easier to portray them as a mad man in the media then actully listing to what they have to say for an hour or such making valid points that the west doensnt want to hear anyway.

 

[TheDude]

Actually a lot of people portray obama as a mad man in the media. I think you would find a lot of different opinions here in america.

Ukraine has been in revolt off and on for years and years and years. I'm glad something changed. It's about time. Yanukovich was burying that nation in the ground for his own well-being. And that of his friends.

How else was the government going to change? Ask the guy nicely? Like you said, if the USA had waited, you think Fat George would have just handed over independence??????


And the arguments I see you making are basically "well the usa did it too, so that makes it okay for russia."

Man, lives are at stake here. If you want it to not be about pride, stop making those kinds of arguments.

I don't support a lot of what the USA does. But I'm only one voice. There are a lot of people who don't. There are a lot of great things that happen in the USA. Stop putting Obama's face on every citizen here. He's not the only one in charge. And unlike in russia, he doesn't own congress. in fact, congress has shot down most things obama has tried to do.... in many cases regardless of the merits of the act.

 

[Storky]

I was at the gym yesterday and NBC news was talking about the Ukraine issue, and I was so infuriated by the lack of good journalism that I smacked the screen and yelled and attracted the attention of people around me, who were appalled, which made me appalled.

You think your journalism is bad? You should see the UK newspapers.

Absolute biased turd on a rusty pinecone.

 

[TheDude]

You think your journalism is bad? You should see the UK newspapers.

Absolute biased turd on a rusty pinecone.

Yea but we have good journalism here, too, as I'm sure you do in the UK. NPR is great, most of the time. It's just the stuff that sells is sensationalism, and most of the time, really important issues can't be discussed sensationally without totally twisting the issue out of proportion. This is why I smacked the miniscreen in the gym and yelled in front of everyone at NBC news. Thank god it wasn't fox news, i probs woulda punched someone.