Ukraine

[MikeK]

ok this is starting to get confusing ...can you guys simplify for me?
like by area/current ruling power/who supports them..
from what I can glean it's something like this:

Crimea: Russian ruled now(by invasion or vote?) name of current president?
Ukraine: used to be Yanukovich..now Yuschenko? supported by whom?

protesters...supported by whom?

Alright. I'll try to keep this unbiased.

First of all, there are (were) different protests.

The first one was in Kiev and western Ukrain under the presidency of pro-Russian Yanukovich. The point of the protest was to get rid of Yanukovich (Done) and join the EU (will never ever be done because none in EU wants to let them in). The protest was officially supported by US and EU.

The current one is in the eastern part of the country against the acting president who is (formally) illegal and (in fact) does not represent the people from the east and their interest (for example, most of them speak Russian as their first or only language and Russian is no longer a second state language for no reason). The current acting president is not Yushenko, and I haven't heard of him forever, in general. Protesters mostly ask to federalize Ukraine. Also, the eastern part is much more economically developed. The protest is supported by Russia.

Crimea and Sevastopol (the main city in the peninsula) are now two federal subjects of Russia. There are two different subjects because Sevastopol now has the same status as Moscow and Saint-Petersburg (they have their own governor, government and legistature body). A bit like DC in the US but the three cities are on the level with the other 82 subjects. The current president of all 85 subjects of the Federation is Putin but all 85 have their own governors and legislature bodies (elected by the subject residents).

Turchynov, the acting president of Urkaine

Yatsenyuk, the acting PM

Yanukovich, the ousted president

[DOUBLEPOST=1397671998][/DOUBLEPOST]The map was made during the first protest = before the annexation of Crimea and before the current protests in the eastern part

[DOUBLEPOST=1397672689][/DOUBLEPOST]Crimea was annexed by vote (about 96,6% voted 'Yes').
Not sure if the real number is that high, but it definately is at least 75%. Over 80% of people voted.
At the time the referendum was held the peninsula was unofficially invaded by Russian military forces, although neither mass media nor students who study at my University's branch in Crimea reported any threats or pressure upon the people. Well, some American / European mass media did but they never even tried to prove anything. Observers were invited but the western countries boycotted the vote. On a serious note, people vote anonimously and in little separate rooms with no militians inside or even inside the whole building. [DOUBLEPOST=1397672729][/DOUBLEPOST]@HIBred : edited the post, corrected and added some info.
Feel free to ask any other questions

 

[theGenius]

@MikeK my translation of international law of selfdetermination might have benn vague with people. in german is says: Selbstbestimmungsrecht der Völker (and this law was infact written in german http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination)
and the translation of "volk" (singular of völker) can be as unspecified as "a lot of people" it also applies to ethnicity and nationality, there isnt really an english counterpart to this word.

 

[MikeK]

@MikeK my translation of international law of selfdetermination might have benn vague with people. in german is says: Selbstbestimmungsrecht der Völker (and this law was infact written in german http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination)
and the translation of "volk" (singular of völker) can be as unspecified as "a lot of people" it also applies to ethnicity and nationality, there isnt really an english counterpart to this word.

that usually applies to peoples / nationalities rather than simply 'a lot of people'. People who determine themselves as Russians / Germans / Americans won't really feel the need to separate themselves from the other city, it's normally people who consider themselves 'texans', 'catalanians', 'bavarians', etc

 

[theGenius]

that usually applies to peoples / nationalities rather than simply 'a lot of people'. People who determine themselves as Russians / Germans / Americans won't really feel the need to separate themselves from the other city, it's normally people who consider themselves 'texans', 'catalanians', 'bavarians', etc

exactly, in other words, the law applies to people in eastern ukraine, they are far more then "a lot of people"[DOUBLEPOST=1397675051][/DOUBLEPOST]meanwhile in ukraine: more kiev military is defecting to donetsk, apperently they forgot to give the soldiers food, so they are now being fed by the locals in donetsk srsly such great people. wonder how kiev is gonna explain this 1

 

[MikeK]

exactly, in other words, the law applies to people in eastern ukraine, they are far more then "a lot of people"[DOUBLEPOST=1397675051][/DOUBLEPOST]meanwhile in ukraine: more kiev military is defecting to donetsk, apperently they forgot to give the soldiers food, so they are now being fed by the locals in donetsk srsly such great people. wonder how kiev is gonna explain this 1

russians bought urkanian soldiers. with food. definitely.[DOUBLEPOST=1397679460][/DOUBLEPOST]By the way, they did not forget to provide the army with food. They told every single soldier to bring their own food.
Which is just ridiculous. And those boxes of food sent by NATO are being sold for 8 euros. Don't know who buys them, I wouldn't consider this crap food at all.

 

[jasmine]

@mike what do yu mean about Surjik languages ?

 

[theGenius]

pro russian protesters are now doing donuts in the kievs tanks in the city center:

i almost start to feel bad for kiev, this must be so humiliating

 

[jasmine]

never humiliate the opponent because peace will be impossible.
otherwise seen piloting the Ukrainian armored I have doubts whether a civilian inside that driver.given the behavior of the Ukrainian army, NATO will think twice before wanting a day integrated in the organization!

 

[TheDude]

The whole point is to humiliate the opponent at this point. Putin dosn't expect to win the favor of the west or western Ukraine. He has lost that option.

What he could have (and should have done) is what the US did, which was when the government got overthrown, he should have gone in diplomatically and extended a hand to them and tried to sympathize with the ukrainian people. What he did instead was immediately label them as fascist thugs and compare NATO to nazis.

Now we're looking at bloodshed.

Not cool.[DOUBLEPOST=1397752521][/DOUBLEPOST]Also, putin kinda brought this on himself.
Also, nothing he has done has brought down tensions between the west and Russia. Why can't they get along? Because putin is insane and completely paranoid about the west undermining Russia economically, which he has now ensured by annexing parts of ukraine and engineering chaos rather than trying to diplomatically ensure peace by working with and compromising with the other surrounding powers, which do not just include the USA but the entirety of the western world.

What he has been condemning about NATO and the rest of the world he has been promoting in russia which is entirely xenophobic and nationalistic mentalities.

Also, remember how he reacted to the whole deal with the forged elections?[DOUBLEPOST=1397753039][/DOUBLEPOST]Oh and all these allegations that the USA caused the overthrow of the Ukrainian government? No. The USA just saw it happen, and probably foresaw it, and jump right on in when it did to win their favor. Not by sending in tanks, but by handing out cookies, yes.

Putin should have handed out more cookies.

In my opinion the west and russia will never get along as long as putin is in power. Putin has got to go!

 

[theGenius]

The whole point is to humiliate the opponent at this point. Putin dosn't expect to win the favor of the west or western Ukraine. He has lost that option.

What he could have (and should have done) is what the US did, which was when the government got overthrown, he should have gone in diplomatically and extended a hand to them and tried to sympathize with the ukrainian people. What he did instead was immediately label them as fascist thugs and compare NATO to nazis.

Now we're looking at bloodshed.

Not cool.[DOUBLEPOST=1397752521][/DOUBLEPOST]Also, putin kinda brought this on himself.
Also, nothing he has done has brought down tensions between the west and Russia. Why can't they get along? Because putin is insane and completely paranoid about the west undermining Russia economically, which he has now ensured by annexing parts of ukraine and engineering chaos rather than trying to diplomatically ensure peace by working with and compromising with the other surrounding powers, which do not just include the USA but the entirety of the western world.

What he has been condemning about NATO and the rest of the world he has been promoting in russia which is entirely xenophobic and nationalistic mentalities.

Also, remember how he reacted to the whole deal with the forged elections?[DOUBLEPOST=1397753039][/DOUBLEPOST]Oh and all these allegations that the USA caused the overthrow of the Ukrainian government? No. The USA just saw it happen, and probably foresaw it, and jump right on in when it did to win their favor. Not by sending in tanks, but by handing out cookies, yes.

Putin should have handed out more cookies.

In my opinion the west and russia will never get along as long as putin is in power. Putin has got to go!

you just seem to completly ignor recent events on the ground.locals stopping tanks on their "anti terrorist mission", soldiers defecting... and all you can do is blame putin?
putin never called nato nazis, and he said there is some facist elemts in the new kiev goverment, not all, but some, wich unfortunatly is true. i agree that the threat from these neo nazis in kiev is almost non existent and that this was beefed up by russian media, but what about the ban of russian language?
i also agree that putin has been supporting xenophobia, wich is a bad thing. yet considering the amound of anti-russian propaganda on major U.S newsplatforms, wich really is utterly ridicoulus and bias in all of its reporting on the issue, it is understandable that he has to counter this.

also, putin engineering chaos? you STILL seem to forget that ukraine borders russia, and that many of russias gaspipelines go thru ukraine. russia definatly not interested in chaos along their borders. ukraine russia and the eu all step in the same pile of shit if this hits the fan, while the U.S watches from overseas, pushes sanctions and forces the eu to pick sides to further isolate russia, russia and eu has giant economic ties, the U.S wants to destroy that. russia is not the one pissing in this pool from overseas. they are very aware that they have to carry the burden of this crisis along with the rest of europe if it escalates.

i also like to remind you that good relations with putin and the west are possible wich proofs it is not putins fault, f.ex: germany had exellent relations with russia while Gehard Schröder was in power, he and Putin were even close friends, and still are. since Angela Merkel took over shit went downhill, since eu contries can no longer chose their own foreign policies because of eu burocratz that basically copy the U.S foreign policies. if germany had a foreign policies that represents its own intrests rather then washingtons, it would never have imposed sanctions on russia, what an idiot retarded move for germany.

U.S goverment really needs to stop blaming russia for all of kievs fuckups. basically they are saying now, if kiev fucks up again, we will impose more sanctions on russia. shit is so backwards

 

[Kreubs]

All I can ask is how on earth can you support people who do this?!
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...-ordered-to-register-in-east-ukraine/7816951/

 

[theGenius]

All I can ask is how on earth can you support people who do this?!
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...-ordered-to-register-in-east-ukraine/7816951/

i would take it easy with news like that. first off: ukrainien and israeli media? ukrainien media has been the most bias i´ve ever seen since this started, the amount of blatent lies is just unbelievable. and the israeli media prolly got its reports from the ukrainien media. giving the impression of anti semtic powers in eastern ukraine would be very convinient for kiev wouldnt it? also, it even sais in the report that this is based on a notification, wich even the jewish women interviewed here stated (quote):"We don't know if these notifications were distributed by pro-Russian activists or someone else, but it's serious that it exists,"
so i would hold my horses before pointing fingers, this is far from prof. the current leader ship in east ukraine has so far never made anti semetic statements, and why would they? even if theyare racists they wouldnt show it now, it would be political suicide for them.

and the fact that she said "pro-russian activists" and not "terrorists" or "militants" pretty much tells you who she supports. and also leads me to belive that her statement is incomplete and/or taken out of context

 

[MikeK]

Secretary of State John Kerry's people give out the fliers and then he calls the incident "grotesque."

^ As possible as local government giving them out.

Or shall we just stop the idiotic conspiracy shit, because anyone can do that and there are mental retards and monsters in every nation and city?

On the other hand, while we don't know who printed the fliers an was giving them out, how can you (@Kreubs ) support people who say this:

In latest wiretapping leak, Yulia Tymoshenko appears to say ‘nuclear weapons’ should be used to kill Russians

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...lear-weapons-should-be-used-to-kill-russians/
http://news.yahoo.com/controversy-over-ukraines-tymoshenko-wipe-russians-leak-164225091.html
http://rt.com/news/tymoshenko-calls-destroy-russia-917/[DOUBLEPOST=1397761278][/DOUBLEPOST]Oh, and the funniest thing ever.
This bitch who supported the ban of Russian language was speaking in Russian with that official during the phone call

 

[theGenius]

in kreubs artical it even states that the jews of donetsk said: "this smells like a provocation" also: why would donetsk major put his name on it only to later deny it?
i think we can rest this case

 

[MikeK]

in kreubs artical it even states that the jews of donetsk said: "this smells like a provocation" also: why would donetsk major put his name on it only to later deny it?
i think we can rest this case

just like snipers shooting protesters in kiev from behind

 

[TheDude]

I'm sure fox news has a ton of anti-russian propaganda, but I don't watch fox news because if I do i get very angry.

Ukraine was thrown into unrest and of course there are different elements clawing for power. But instead of working with the rest of the world to find solutions, Putin undermined any attempt to create peace in order to either:
1. Annex more of Ukraine
2. Allow the eastern part of ukraine to separate and set up a pro-russian government that is part of his economic sphere.

That is what I meant by engineered chaos. Not that putin paid every single member of eastern ukraine to want to join russia and somehow covered the whole conspiracy up. That would be insane. That is not what I'm suggesting.

And I don't think russia is worried about its own assets in ukraine. If ukraine attempted to fuck with russias infrastructure directly, it would be exactly the pretext putin would need to invade, and Ukraine stands no chance against the russian military, as has already been demonstrated.


The fact that you can point to a couple of news sources with really sketchy info and anti-russian statements doesn't mean anything accept there is sketchy reporting in America.... that's not new. It wouldn't be hard at all to make a similar case about Russian news, and I think you'd find quite a bit more blatant propaganda there right now.


I don't think the USA knows what to do at all, first of all. Second of all, it's not just the USA against putin. It's the entirety of the western world, and the USA isn't forcing countries like germany to take that stance. Most of those countries aren't too happy with the USA as it is right now. There's no policy train they are just waiting to jump on.

 

[theGenius]

I'm sure fox news has a ton of anti-russian propaganda, but I don't watch fox news because if I do i get very angry.

Ukraine was thrown into unrest and of course there are different elements clawing for power. But instead of working with the rest of the world to find solutions, Putin undermined any attempt to create peace in order to either:
1. Annex more of Ukraine
2. Allow the eastern part of ukraine to separate and set up a pro-russian government that is part of his economic sphere.

That is what I meant by engineered chaos. Not that putin paid every single member of eastern ukraine to want to join russia and somehow covered the whole conspiracy up. That would be insane. That is not what I'm suggesting.

And I don't think russia is worried about its own assets in ukraine. If ukraine attempted to fuck with russias infrastructure directly, it would be exactly the pretext putin would need to invade, and Ukraine stands no chance against the russian military, as has already been demonstrated.


The fact that you can point to a couple of news sources with really sketchy info and anti-russian statements doesn't mean anything accept there is sketchy reporting in America.... that's not new. It wouldn't be hard at all to make a similar case about Russian news, and I think you'd find quite a bit more blatant propaganda there right now.


I don't think the USA knows what to do at all, first of all. Second of all, it's not just the USA against putin. It's the entirety of the western world, and the USA isn't forcing countries like germany to take that stance. Most of those countries aren't too happy with the USA as it is right now. There's no policy train they are just waiting to jump on.

how do you know that? the way european contrys have lost their sovreignity to unelected eu beurocratz is beyond your imagination i can promise you, and german politics have changed drastically aswell, i partly explained it above. but this isnt about german politics, just trust me when i say that the U.S takes direct influence on our foreign policy, and not in a good way. understanding what happend politaclly inside the eu and germany the last decade is even more complicated then Ukraine, dont even go there

 

[TheDude]

So it's all a conspiracy on the part of the entire western world....

And it's poor russia the little guy?

Come on dude.

 

[theGenius]

So it's all a conspiracy on the part of the entire western world....

And it's poor russia the little guy?

Come on dude.

thats never what i said, noone is talking about a conspiracy here. i stated my opinions on the situation to its current moment along these 11 pages quite clearly, im not gonna start all over again.
but to your violently summarized statement here, i guess the violently summarized answer is yes: i do think the russian position makes more sence in this scenario and have the right on their side. and yes, i do think the west along with kievs coup appointed goverment is reponsible for alot of the problems ukraine faces today, aswell as for the strained relations between russia and the west.

come on dude @you, its really not that alien that what russia and the east are representing are legit claims and positions.

 

[MikeK]

Putin undermined any attempt to create peace in order to either:
1. Annex more of Ukraine
2. Allow the eastern part of ukraine to separate and set up a pro-russian government that is part of his economic sphere.

Since fucking when other countries but the US are not allowed to care for their economical and geopolitical benefits?
If you are going to cry me a river about lives of a few dozens of people (who were not killed by Russian military but by Ukrainians), I'll find you stats on how many people the US army killed in the last decade or two.