Ukraine

[mousquet]

Weeeelll, only that blue territory is marked as "not Russia", all the white lands seem to be unclaimed = apparently, Russian army can go there.

BTW, blue territory is claimed too. I found this map some months ago. You need not to know Polish lanuage to understans it. Polish guys are so cute
And yes, Poland will give common border with Russia for Romania

[DOUBLEPOST=1409325716][/DOUBLEPOST]Seriously adding: Next of about 20 or 30 Tochka-U ballistical missiles fired by Kiev junta to rebels. Fallen today without explosion into private house garden in Donbass. I dont know, falling these missiles due improperly maintenance or shot down by Russian anti-air defence. Anyway, this missile can devastate everything on at least 10 acres of square. They can hold chemical or nuclear warheads as well.

 

[jasmine]

There is satellite proof of far more than just 10 soldiers deliberately crossing into Ukraine. To say you accidentally crossed another county's border is pure
http://www.businessinsider.com/nato-satellite-photo-evidence-russia-lying-about-ukraine-2014-8

Russians have had artillery inside Ukraine since late July. You obviously just believe whatever excuse for an excuse that they give, so that makes you

You don't understand the gravity of the situation, being tucked 3-4 borders away from Russia and all. If they go and grab the land where all the Russian speakers live as they did with Crimea, then Romania will border Russia. Given the recent events, that's totally not cool.
(No offence to you, Mike, I just don't like what your country's military is doing so close to where I live.)

HI Kreubs
(No offense to you, Mike, I just do not like what your country's military is doing so close to Where I Live.)
I think the Russians are entitled to have the same reasoning "they don't want NATO to their border" and in this regard they have any legitimacy to intervene (or not) in ukraine!
where are the "famous" satelites that can read car plate because I see nothing in these photos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=iwdsm-Oux4o

 

[mousquet]

Now reported that rebels possibly captured 1 or 2 Tochka-U launchers in "out of order" condition. I will not be surprised if next time Ukrainian army will fire one of theyr nuclear power plants with Tochka-U and charge rebels or Russia.

Mr Vitaly Churkin asked in UN yesterday about shot down Malaysian Boeing. Where are conversations between crew and air traffic controllers? What about flight recordes delivered to Great Britan about one month ago? No answers...

 

[theGenius]

There is satellite proof of far more than just 10 soldiers deliberately crossing into Ukraine. To say you accidentally crossed another county's border is pure
http://www.businessinsider.com/nato-satellite-photo-evidence-russia-lying-about-ukraine-2014-8

Russians have had artillery inside Ukraine since late July. You obviously just believe whatever excuse for an excuse that they give, so that makes you

You don't understand the gravity of the situation, being tucked 3-4 borders away from Russia and all. If they go and grab the land where all the Russian speakers live as they did with Crimea, then Romania will border Russia. Given the recent events, that's totally not cool.
(No offence to you, Mike, I just don't like what your country's military is doing so close to where I live.)

ah, i dont understand the gravity of the situation you think? let me remind you that i also live in europe. so dont try to make it sound like you are hit by this crisis more then any other european.

yet, im not the least worried for "russian agression", how come? because just like us, russia is in europe, and it suffers just as much or even more then the rest of europe from a civil war going on on their border. and the last thing a big country wants is a unrest along its borders. so i really dont worry to much about russian intentions, they just want stability, and not be further encircled by nato. wich i have no problem with since i dont think its good for global peace if nato has 100´s of bases around the world.

now, here is what I worry about, and i like you to fully appreciate the gravity of this: right now the USA is pissing in europes pool pushing their international interests and most of europe goes along with it cause usa is boss of the western world. now history has thaught us again and again that U.S meddling with other contrys buissnes, especially on the other side of the ocean, has often left the regions in chaos. and what makes you think we europeans are so sacred and special to the US goverment? we are not, if this shit hits the fan the US will ship the guns and look to its own interests, like in any other international crisis. hell they ship guns to islamic fanatics neighboring israel, their holy ally.

WHATEVER goes wrong in this conflict, it will hit europe and russia, NOT the US!

what are the US interests in this conflict?

1. russia is recovering from the fall of the sovjet union, and has become very powerful again. USA wants to weaken it, therefor wanting to expand nato eastward and sabotaging its economical growth.

2. how best sabotage russias economical growth? drive a wedge between europe and russia. a trade war between russia and the EU means the EU will have to turn to other buissness partners, and if the tradewar escalates, eventually buy oil and gas from other contries, most likely US fracking gas will be imported ( to a much higher price). and of course, such a trade war will weaken the russian economy, and the EU´s for that matter aswell. and the EU plays in the US´s hands perfectly.

3. finally the USA misses the big bad russian bear of the sovjet union. a real rival foreign powerhouse on the international scene that unites the people of the USA and draws attention from growing internal problems. terrorism just doesnt cut it. problem is, russia was not seen as a real thread the last decade. for that to work, russia has to be an agressor, and the public has to believe that putin is an evil dictator that opresses his people. so how to get the wheel spinning faster then supporting and funding a cue in a conty that is of vital strategic importance to russia and also has cloese cultural and historic ties.
so wether proven or not, everything in this conflict will be russias fault in the eyes of US spokespersons and western media. ofcourse this works other way around aswell to some degree, the russian goverment also benefits from the unity and patriotism caused by the fear of an expanding nato. however they do not benefit from unrest on their borders and a trade war.

a crisis in europe hits all contries in the region, including russia. and peace in europe is NOT possible without or against russia, only with russia! the USA is safe from this crisis on the other side of the atlantic, althou some of it might get thru to the US economy aswell, its nothing compared to what they will gain if russia and the EU become weaker economically.

and wether if russia is truly guilty of meddling in ukraine with its military or not, it is still understandable. to put this in perspective, name me one civil war, or revolution in america that the USA hasnt been meddling with since ww2. i bet u wont even find that many on a global scale.

in german there is an expression: if 2 fight, the 3rd will get lucky. guess who the 3rd is...

that is why i put more trust into russias intentions then in the US´s in this conflict, russia and europe are sitting in the same boat, if one punches a hole in it, we all sink the same. i hope you can relate to this perspective, i have tried to paint this picture several times in this thread already.

thanks for taking the time to read this, it became way longer then i planned.

 

[jasmine]

ah, i dont understand the gravity of the situation you think? let me remind you that i also live in europe. in fact closer to a russian border then romania and in a non-member state of nato. so dont try to make it sound like you are hit by this crisis more then any other european.

yet, im not the least worried for "russian agression", how come? because just like us, russia is in europe, and it suffers just as much or even more then the rest of europe from a civil war going on on their border. and the last thing a big country wants is a unrest along its borders. so i really dont worry to much about russian intentions, they just want stability, and not be further encircled by nato. wich i have no problem with since i dont think its good for global peace if nato has 100´s of bases around the world.

now, here is what I worry about, and i like you to fully appreciate the gravity of this: right now the USA is pissing in europes pool pushing their international interests and most of europe goes along with it cause usa is boss of the western world. now history has thaught us again and again that U.S meddling with other contrys buissnes, especially on the other side of the ocean, has often left the regions in chaos. and what makes you think we europeans are so sacred and special to the US goverment? we are not, if this shit hits the fan the US will ship the guns and look to its own interests, like in any other international crisis. hell they ship guns to islamic fanatics neighboring israel, their holy ally.

WHATEVER goes wrong in this conflict, it will hit europe and russia, NOT the US!

what are the US interests in this conflict?

1. russia is recovering from the fall of the sovjet union, and has become very powerful again. USA wants to weaken it, therefor wanting to expand nato eastward and sabotaging its economical growth.

2. how best sabotage russias economical growth? drive a wedge between europe and russia. a trade war between russia and the EU means the EU will have to turn to other buissness partners, and if the tradewar escalates, eventually buy oil and gas from other contries, most likely US fracking gas will be imported ( to a much higher price). and of course, such a trade war will weaken the russian economy, and the EU´s for that matter aswell. and the EU plays in the US´s hands perfectly.

3. finally the USA misses the big bad russian bear of the sovjet union. a real rival foreign powerhouse on the international scene that unites the people of the USA and draws attention from growing internal problems. terrorism just doesnt cut it. problem is, russia was not seen as a real thread the last decade. for that to work, russia has to be an agressor, and the public has to believe that putin is an evil dictator that opresses his people. so how to get the wheel spinning faster then supporting and funding a cue in a conty that is of vital strategic importance to russia and also has cloese cultural and historic ties.
so wether proven or not, everything in this conflict will be russias fault in the eyes of US spokespersons and western media. ofcourse this works other way around aswell to some degree, the russian goverment also benefits from the unity and patriotism caused by the fear of an expanding nato. however they do not benefit from unrest on their borders and a trade war.

a crisis in europe hits all contries in the region, including russia. and peace in europe is NOT possible without or against russia, only with russia! the USA is safe from this crisis on the other side of the atlantic, althou some of it might get thru to the US economy aswell, its nothing compared to what they will gain if russia and the EU become weaker economically.

and wether if russia is truly guilty of meddling in ukraine with its military or not, it is still understandable. to put this in perspective, name me one civil war, or revolution in america that the USA hasnt been meddling with since ww2. i bet u wont even find that many on a global scale.

in german there is an expression: if 2 fight, the 3rd will get lucky. guess who the 3rd is...

that is why i put more trust into russias intentions then in the US´s in this conflict, russia and europe are sitting in the same boat, if one punches a hole in it, we all sink the same. i hope you can relate to this perspective, i have tried to paint this picture several times in this thread already.

thanks for taking the time to read this, it became way longer then i planned.

synthesis honest than yours, which I fully adhered, europe has everything to lose by following the American policy (to which we do not understand much seen the latest events in Iraq Syria)

 

[mousquet]

synthesis honest than yours, which I fully adhered, europe has everything to lose by following the American policy (to which we do not understand much seen the latest events in Iraq Syria)

There is an opinion in Russia that USA has not distinct policy now. They only reflectioning and try to increase global crisis in the world. Last USA relations with Iran are demonstarating their policy. They starting cooperation with Iran and just after that sunk Iranian civilian ship in the Gulf. They arm rebels in Syria and bombing the same rebels in Iraq. At the same time USA revile UAE and Egypt which bombing rebels in Lybia...

 

[Kreubs]

@theGenius
I do see your points, and I can agree with a couple of them. I won't deny that the US has tried to sway many conflicts, because it's true. Sorry if I was too harsh in my original post; seeing people support Russia in Ukraine just bugs me for a couple of reasons. It's the 21st century and we still have border wars going on with excuses of protecting people of the same ethnicity. Why don't they move to Russia? If there really was a history of that much of a divide amongst the people groups, then why didn't they agree to split apart peacefully like Czechoslovakia? Crimea was already not on the Ukraine boat since the fall of the USSR and was given autonomy. Another reason is that Russia has a long history of leaders who restrict/restricted people's freedoms (America is starting to go down that road too, unfortunately), so seeing their expansion doesn't sit well with me.

 

[MikeK]

It's the 21st century and we still have border wars going on with excuses of protecting people of the same ethnicity. Why don't they move to Russia?

Wow. Just wow.

Apparently, because it's their great-grandparents' home there?

And because they have their families, houses and other immovables, jobs and friends there?

Would you be happy to be forced to move? How about tomorrow morning, for example?

If there really was a history of that much of a divide amongst the people groups,

There was that much of divide for the very reason that the country never existed as such up until the split of the USSR.

The Eastern parts used to belong to the Russian Empire, some lands used to be Polish, and so on.

Eastern parts of the modern Ukraine were - by some idiots - administratively split from Russia to Ukraine, and that was meant to be an internal matter.

then why didn't they agree to split apart peacefully like Czechoslovakia?

A good question, lmao. They used to have somewhat decentralized government, two official languages, Russian TV, etc.

Now, Russian is no longer an official language, kids are taught nonsense instead of history in case of all matters related to Russia, etc.

They wanted the language and everything else back. The new governemnt denied it.

They did want to split apart peacefully. The new government launched the so-called "anti-terrorist operation" against its civilians.

Now they, obviously, try to defend themselves, their land, their families.

Another reason is that Russia has a long history of leaders who restrict/restricted people's freedoms (America is starting to go down that road too, unfortunately), so seeing their expansion doesn't sit well with me.

Yes, they do. But they, at the very least, don't shoot houses and whole blocks with missiles.

What if that was your home?[DOUBLEPOST=1409432050][/DOUBLEPOST]

My thoughts exactly. We spend so much time worrying about others, when we have our own issues that are being ignored.

That's exactly the point.

Those faraway little wars are a very good way to fill people's minds and make them think of something else rather than about inner problems the government can't - or does not want - to solve.

Russia tried the same policy of a "short and victorious war" (and that is now officially, approved) in 1905. It failed with the "short and victorious" war with Japan, though. And the government found itself on the edge of a revolution.

It is also a brilliant way for some to make money.

There's also gas in the eastern part of Ukraine.

 

[theGenius]

@theGenius
I do see your points, and I can agree with a couple of them. I won't deny that the US has tried to sway many conflicts, because it's true. Sorry if I was too harsh in my original post; seeing people support Russia in Ukraine just bugs me for a couple of reasons. It's the 21st century and we still have border wars going on with excuses of protecting people of the same ethnicity. Why don't they move to Russia? If there really was a history of that much of a divide amongst the people groups, then why didn't they agree to split apart peacefully like Czechoslovakia? Crimea was already not on the Ukraine boat since the fall of the USSR and was given autonomy. Another reason is that Russia has a long history of leaders who restrict/restricted people's freedoms (America is starting to go down that road too, unfortunately), so seeing their expansion doesn't sit well with me.

yeah, i have seen this: "why dont they just move to russia then" argument on so many forums and in comments on newsites. and its really a argument that isnt thought thru very well. just like mike said, people have their homes, friends, family, jobs, their entire life there. its pretty obvious that people want to take their land they been living on with them when joining russia.

also, you said:"It's the 21st century and we still have border wars going on with excuses of protecting people of the same ethnicity" if you are refering to crimea, well alot of people would argue that wasnt a war, me being one of them. but lets put lets put that aside.

theoretically, without relating this to ukraine, what is a more just cause for an military intervention for a contry then protecting their ethnic people? oil perhaps? traderoutes? canals? ideology? religion? expansion? there is no better reason IMO.

just imagin you had family and friends in lets say moldova, and then anti romanien sentiment risies in moldova after a revolution, and your family and friends there start fearing for their lifes, wouldnt you be glad and even a bit proud of your contry if they support them, and not just leave them to their destiny? sure, a hidden agenda might be behind it, like almost always, but does that really matter to the people on the ground if they fear for their lifes?

to put it in perspective, when unrest in a country, the US ALWAYS sents soldiers and does everything necesarry to secure their contrymen! (YES, i know a citizen isnt the same as a person with that ethnicity living in different contry, still a somewhat related point IMO)

i also generally dont agree that ethnicity should be a reason to invade other contries, but when there is reason beyond doubt that that a certain contries people face violence in another contry, the goverment should do what it can to help those people, who else will?

 

[Storky]

The world should all be one country. The human race being extremely territorial will be the downfall of our species.

 

[theGenius]

The world should all be one country. The human race being extremely territorial will be the downfall of our species.

you are right, the human race is extremly territorial, thats why one big contry would mean armageddon!

 

[jasmine]

The world should all be one country. The human race being extremely territorial will be the downfall of our species.

you forget the human specificity we are one of the most sociable species living on this earth. the eternal conflict is addressed in the Bible during the confrontation cain vs abel .the problem is not the territory, but the resources, operation and funding of the fruits of this one.
photos sent by mike are not accessible to us in the West which once again proves the manipulation of the media by political
I love when you said "the media controls the people and the government controls the media" but you forget in your sentence which controls the states, I have my suspicions it is the large industrial companies, banks etc. .. .
without repeating the story would have been the NAZI madness without restraint captains of industry such WW BMW KRUPP DAIMLER BENZ etc ...
In all cases these images are very bad and I wish good luck to Ukrainian because they have fallen into the American trap (see what is happening now in Iraq ...)

 

[Storky]

you forget the human specificity we are one of the most sociable species living on this earth. the eternal conflict is addressed in the Bible during the confrontation cain vs abel .the problem is not the territory, but the resources, operation and funding of the fruits of this one.
photos sent by mike are not accessible to us in the West which once again proves the manipulation of the media by political
I love when you said "the media controls the people and the government controls the media" but you forget in your sentence which controls the states, I have my suspicions it is the large industrial companies, banks etc. .. .
without repeating the story would have been the NAZI madness without restraint captains of industry such WW BMW KRUPP DAIMLER BENZ etc ...
In all cases these images are very bad and I wish good luck to Ukrainian because they have fallen into the American trap (see what is happening now in Iraq ...)

I disagree that they have fallen into the American trap. This is the EU's territory (there we go talking territory again). This is also a different situation. Ukraine is trying to become part of the EU. Therefore we have a lot of help for it. Iraq was just full of WMDs (but they never found any!) and OIL.

 

[Kreubs]

you are right, the human race is extremly territorial, thats why one big contry would mean armageddon!

Exactly. It would take WWIII to make a world country.
Well ISIS did take over an old WMD facility a few weeks ago in Iraq. Loads of toxic gas and chemicals but nothing weaponized.

 

[jasmine]

the ennemy was communism not Russia ,russia has always been very close to europe and all first she has no choice because like us, it's for a good and huge European part
do with Russia and not against Russia would be to our advantage (but perhaps not that of Americans)

 

[Joonikko]

It's really creepy how much sense this makes
http://www.vox.com/2014/8/29/6082769/one-chart-why-putin-invading-ukraine

 

[MikeK]

It's really creepy how much sense this makes
http://www.vox.com/2014/8/29/6082769/one-chart-why-putin-invading-ukraine

Another WOW.

That, despite Putin's rating, barely makes any sense.

There's no real hysteria about 'faschism' either. I've seen, err, two people who speak in those terms and it's not used too often on TV. They do mention it sometimes in regard to some very particular people.

So he kept escalating, including arming rebels with powerful surface-to-air missiles that they used to shoot down Malaysian Airlines flight 17, killing 298 innocent people and infuriating the world.

ANY proof? ANYTHING?

Russia is the only country which actually keeps asking questions about the flight in the UN, tries to urge Ukraine to publish the related data, etc.

 

[Storky]

Another WOW.

That, despite Putin's rating, barely makes any sense.

There's no real hysteria about 'faschism' either. I've seen, err, two people who speak in those terms and it's not used too often on TV. They do mention it sometimes in regard to some very particular people.



ANY proof? ANYTHING?

Russia is the only country which actually keeps asking questions about the flight in the UN, tries to urge Ukraine to publish the related data, etc.

No proof, only those who were there know what happened. One side is not telling the truth. I hope the "independent" investigation finds the real culprits.

 

[MikeK]

No proof, only those who were there know what happened. One side is not telling the truth. I hope the "independent" investigation finds the real culprits.

Ukraine controls most of the data, how's that gonna be independent (even if there will be any "investigation" at all, in the true meaning of the word)

 

[jasmine]

No proof, only those who were there know what happened. One side is not telling the truth. I hope the "independent" investigation finds the real culprits.

two expilcations to malaysia airlines:
1 - it is the resistant that it is wrong target, it's very serious, but it's still a shooting accident else would a "collateral damage"
2 - is the Ukrainian Army who shot down the plane and there is a state crime to be severely sanctioned by the UN
3 - (these are just my own beliefs), a third-party entity that has all the advantages that this conflict escalates to a Sission without posssible return to a true collaboration occurs between Ukraine and russia which are two very close countries to share their culture, language, history. etc ...
while waiting for the evidence that I find starting to take a long time to come