These posts are quite blocky. I will reply in a manner to make things more easily readable:
1. Using "I think" or "In my opinion" does not have anything to do with dumping on or NOT dumping on people. Try this one out: "In my opinion, black people are dumber than white people."
2. This law has nothing to do with Christian marriages, does not attempt to, and specifically protects ANY Religious Organization's right to refuse to marry any couple, based on their specific religious beliefs. This point has of yet to be addressed by anyone here. I would recommend you all read the bill. The distinction can be found in the wording of the law, stating that it is "Civil Marriage" NOT "Religious Marriage." As we have separation of church and state here (a wonderful thing), I would think that stickin' "Civil" on the front of anything would immediately uninvolved any religious organization.
3. I will state this again: Marriage was not invented by Christianity. While Christian Marriage has it's own meanings and larger depth than the simple marriages (under law) being proposed here, the idea of marriage has been around in almost every single ancient civilization that has ever existed. Hardly any of these ancient civilizations practiced Christianity. In fact, the introduction of Christianity into these civilizations almost always ended in huge bloodshed and war.
To extrapolate on this: The marriage defined in our law is not related to Christianity because we separate church and state. We do this to prevent encroachment on the rights of citizens with different beliefs. So in this case, we are merely giving everyone who is a taxpaying adult the opportunity to seek a civil union (described a "CIVIL MARRIAGE"), regardless of sexual orientation or gender. This is important, because the definition in the law is CIVIL MARRIAGE. The reason CIVIL is there is to give an obvious and distinct separation from RELIGIOUS marriage.
The ONLY things this bill does are 1. Gays can go get a marriage license. 2. Churches do not have to perform marriages on any gays or lesbians, regardless of whether or not they have a marriage license.
So to sum up: Marriage is an english word, not defined by the bible, except in the instance that Christianity forced itself upon every single culture as the dominant social structure. Civil marriage is absolutely distinct from religious marriage. We are not changing the Webster's definition.
4. If you want to make a statement like this "Christians have to tolerate your beliefs or we're assholes, and you guys don't have to tolerate shit," I think you need to back that up with some kind of historical proof. Historically, it's actually been the other way around, and not only did people who didn't agree with Christians simply get called "asshole," many times they were harassed or killed. I say "were," but as you know, the real Ku Klux Klan still exists today, and it is not the only group preaching against others who disagree. And yes. The Ku Klux Klan is a Christian Based organization. Even though most clear-headed Christians would agree that they are some of the most despicable people on earth. In fact, a deaf gay woman was recently heavily discriminated against by her christian school that she worked for. She was gonna be fired, but she filed suit.
5. All of the arguments about classeless society and such were made during pretty much every Civil Rights movement in the 60's. "It's a slipper slope. First they can piss in the same bathrooms. Next they will marry our daughters" (eventually they did marry their daughters). "It's a slippery slope, first it's our daughters, then they'll have someone in congress!" (they do have someone in congress). The list goes on.
The fact is that the thing that keeps this from being a slippery slope is the very wording of the bill, which I suggest you read. Also, political activism will prevent new-world-order nut jobs from destroying our beautiful nation. You just have to go out, get informed, and be politically active.
6. Christians are not and have never been the victim of society historically. The majority of the USA is still Christian. Our pledge of allegiance still says "Under God" and I don't want it changed (i'm not a christian, but I believe in respecting our founding fathers and our nation). White christian males still make more than anyone else in this country and still have more power than anyone else. Notice how Obama is the first black president EVER? Notice how women still make less? Christianity is a decied patriarchal (The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, and also all that shit in leviticus) belief system, and it has permeated society. Almost all societies.
7. Still no one has addressed the issue that gay couples don't have the same rights as married straight couples today. 420 less rights of any importance (give or take 5). That's ridiculous. Why shouldn't gay life partners be protected under the law the way straight married couples are? It has NOTHING to do with religion and EVERYTHING to do with giving everyone in our society an equal voice and the same opportunities as everyone else. it's not about making everyone equal. If they waste their lives, that's their problem. If they commit crimes, they don't get the same rights everyone else has. Also their problem. The only thing is..... are we saying it's a crime to be gay?
Let me make this argument then, even though it's not really pertinent (read #3) : If marriage is only a christian institution, then why the fuck is it in our constitution? We are not a nation of only Christians. We have Jews, Atheists, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists...etc. EVERYTHING. Our Constitution is supposed to represent and protect EVERYONE in our society. I would gladly change it to Civil Union (just the words) instead of Civil Marriage, but that has been tried over 20 times, and has been shot down every time. I would like to say again for the 4th time that it's not simply "Marriage" but "Civil Marriage" that is being talked about here.
So I hope these points are addressed at some point. I've made several of them several times now, and it seems like people just keep on breezing over them.
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And to steelhorse, the argument that liberals want bigger government? That is exactly like lumping all conservatives together.
Liberals, in general, are in favor of taking legislative ACTION to solve problems, where-as conservatives have historically taken the view that pretty much "the system will fix itself." So, when talking about legislative action, we are really talking about the people's power. I don't think many liberals would actually say they want to give the government more control. Do they want, sometimes, to take action and make regulations and government programs? Sure!
But if you want to argue about that, then you'd have to argue about whether or not government programs and regulations have been successful, and that really depends on the program, who fucked it over while it went through congress, whether the people in charge of it are smart or not..etc.
I can list over 50 government programs that have been huge successes right now off the top of my head. Does that make big government good? Not necessarily.
Idk, maybe I'm not a liberal then.
Also, keep in mind that the use of the word "liberal" as a negative name started basically in the McCarthy era, when we had the red scare, and one of the most conservative guys (mccarthy) used politics to gain enormous power. Also, looking even in the past 12 years, Bush gave himself extreme powers, while Obama rescinded most of those powers in his first year of office. Obama has also been able to get almost nothing done with congress, making a testament to the checks and balances our political system has in place. Doesn't seem to be a very powerful dude to me. Bush, however, was borderlining on fascist.
My point is that the idea that either liberals or conservatives are in some way inherently "anti-american" is based off immaturity and ignorance. Sometimes the liberal (progressive) route is better. Many times letting the system fix itself is the better route. Voting party line is EXACTLY what those guys who want power want. That way they can count their sheep.
