Ukraine
- Thread starter MikeK
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Since this thread would have otherwise went to waste, what are your thoughts on this Mike?
http://news.yahoo.com/russian-troops-over-ukraines-crimea-region-200052097.html
http://news.yahoo.com/obama-putin-spoke-phone-ukraine-us-official-220748021.html?vp=1
Do you think Putin's actions are justifiable?
http://news.yahoo.com/russian-troops-over-ukraines-crimea-region-200052097.html
http://news.yahoo.com/obama-putin-spoke-phone-ukraine-us-official-220748021.html?vp=1
Do you think Putin's actions are justifiable?
Well, it's controversial. Formally it does seem to violate international law principles (sovereignty, non-intervention etc).
On the other side, Ukraine is split into at least two different parts and the Eastern one used to be Russian for god knows how many ages, thus the majority of people there speak Russian and consider themselves Russian. And this is why most regional parliaments in the Eastern part were entered by the PEOPLE dropping Ukrainian flags and hanging Russian.
Crimea is the most pro-Russian region with lots of Russians with Russian citizenship and the military base that we've always had there. Also, Crimea was Russian until when it was gifted to Ukraine by Khrushchev (not sure how much you should drink to do that kind of stuff) about 40 years ago.
Given that the "peaceful" protesters took over a number of police armor stations and seized hundreds of fire arms, the base and people do need to be protected and Putin did NOT ask the Senate to USE the force, it's just stationed there so far. It is obvious that the protection is needed but it is not any less obvious that the protection was just an excuse to do what Putin wanted to do.
Im not 100% sure if the troops are located inside the base territory or outside, but anyway, that's politics.
Cough Korean war
Cough The Bay of Pigs Invasion
Cough Cambodian Campaign
Cough Iran
Cough Lebanon
Cough Bosnia
Cough Serbia
Cough Afghanistan
Cough Iraq
Cough Syria
Cough see 100 more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_military_operations
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I see. I would post my thoughts too on Putin but we both know what happens to threads based on politics/ religion; it'll only end up turning into an all out flame war because of disagreements. I was just curious to hear the perspective of a civilian of Russia to broaden my own understanding of whats going on.
Btw, The US, Germany and some other countries were supporting the protest which is also a violation of the State sovereignty principle.
Nothing personal and no hatred, I'm just stating the facts that I know.
IMO, both Russia and NATO countries do their best to balance and ride a one-wheel bicycle on the line between "it's yet okay" and "it's already a violation".
I'd suggest that all countries GTFO and let Ukrainians vote if they want to keep the country united or not and then elect their president(s) and parliament(s). But who ever pays attention to what regular people suggest when there's a chance to get a piece of a tasty pie..
Nothing personal and no hatred, I'm just stating the facts that I know.
IMO, both Russia and NATO countries do their best to balance and ride a one-wheel bicycle on the line between "it's yet okay" and "it's already a violation".
I'd suggest that all countries GTFO and let Ukrainians vote if they want to keep the country united or not and then elect their president(s) and parliament(s). But who ever pays attention to what regular people suggest when there's a chance to get a piece of a tasty pie..
I'd be glad if you shared your thoughts here or in a PM.
Putin is not my mom, Obama isn't yours, this shouldn't hurt any of us
Actually I don't think you would surprise me much as I try to check different mass media sourses.
Normally I watch the 1st Russian TV channel which must be broadcast by Putin himself,
Read articles on / listen to Echo of Moscow which is an independent opposition radio / website, and they always do state some very reasonable arguments,
Watch Euronews (normally more or less of no-comment / impartial style, sometimes a bit anti-Putin biased)
And read NY Times, which usually state some anti-Russian overview, but they do have a point quite often, normally just not stating the facts they don't want to state (same way as the 1st russian tv channel).
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Here please, I like reading about different perspectives. If people can't talk about politics without flaming then that's their problem and they can take it elsewhere.I'd be glad if you shared your thoughts here or in a PM.
Putin is not my mom, Obama isn't yours, this shouldn't hurt any of us
Sadly, that probably more true than any of us could know.
Parliament has already used this as an opportunity to publicly denounce Obama and the United States.
Ukraine is pretty much a failed state economically due to horrendous corruption among its oligarchs.
Taking over Ukraine and installing more oligarchs would be a failed economic venture in the long-run. Putin is horridly narcissistic, but I doubt he is blinded to the degree that he doesn't see this.
Hopefully he's just trying to protect people here, but I view any humanitarian effort by Putin as highly unlikely. The alternatives are a little scary.
Also, remember Georgia? Laughable pretexts.[DOUBLEPOST=1393778614][/DOUBLEPOST]Russia also accused the USA of covertly supporting the protesters, ousting the powers that were, and attempting to install a Fascist regime there.
I hope that's not what you're referring to Mike.
Ukraine is pretty much a failed state economically due to horrendous corruption among its oligarchs.
Taking over Ukraine and installing more oligarchs would be a failed economic venture in the long-run. Putin is horridly narcissistic, but I doubt he is blinded to the degree that he doesn't see this.
Hopefully he's just trying to protect people here, but I view any humanitarian effort by Putin as highly unlikely. The alternatives are a little scary.
Also, remember Georgia? Laughable pretexts.[DOUBLEPOST=1393778614][/DOUBLEPOST]Russia also accused the USA of covertly supporting the protesters, ousting the powers that were, and attempting to install a Fascist regime there.
I hope that's not what you're referring to Mike.
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The fact of the matter is that other countries cannot take the United States seriously, especially with Obama in office. Not offense to the guy, but he hasn't exactly been able to solidify his leadership position. Him disagreeing with Putin's decision is a mute point.
Therefore, we just need to stay out of this and let nature work its course. I don't see anything wrong with Russia wanting to protect their assets. Isn't that what the United States has done in most Middle Eastern nations?
Therefore, we just need to stay out of this and let nature work its course. I don't see anything wrong with Russia wanting to protect their assets. Isn't that what the United States has done in most Middle Eastern nations?
I was speaking about
1. American officials meeting protesters and giving them cookies (why would USA officially show support for one of the parties, while it falls under the national sovereignty?)
2. Incredible amount of money spent on the protest (thousands of people from different cities of Western Ukraine were transported to Kiev and then all of them were fed for free, medi care was free, and I suspect that some of them might have been paid for doing what was done for a month or even more). None of us can prove if the money was american or not, but it could be.
3. The leaked phone call between the USA ambassador and that woman who was giving out cookies. The two were deciding which of the "opposition leaders" should be made the president in the future (soverignty, democracy and freedom, y0)
4. The agreement between Yanukovich and the opposition, signed by both parties and a number of european officials. Yanukovich did everything he promised to, opposition did nothing.[DOUBLEPOST=1393782299][/DOUBLEPOST]They didn't even try to claim that the call was fake, it was said to be a secret diplomatic discussion, so "it's none of your business, don't ask"
It's not Russia trying to protect their assets. It is Russia asserting political and military dominance over the rest of the Western world. Basically "and what are you gonna do about it?" Statements associating the USA with fascist elements are aimed specifically at building hatred for the USA in places like Russia, where there is a distinct fear of fascism (in the USA we don't really worry about fascist leaders taking over, in Russia, Putin has already been "elected" thrice).
Everyone hates how the US is involved in other people's shit. There is constant argument and protest throughout the states on the subject. Congress takes years to get anything done. The issue of Obama using executive powers in ways overstepping the balance of powers is a hot subject right now, and has been at many times throughout his presidency. There is plenty of dissent in the USA.
If Russia gets their fingers deep enough into Ukraine, they will appoint oligarchs, they will suck the nation dry of resources, and they will make the nation a failed slave state. The economy will fail in all regards that don't help Russia.
And just like Mike said, just wait: Anything that makes Ukraine look utterly stupid and incapable of ruling itself is going to get blasted over every major media source in Russia.
Everyone hates how the US is involved in other people's shit. There is constant argument and protest throughout the states on the subject. Congress takes years to get anything done. The issue of Obama using executive powers in ways overstepping the balance of powers is a hot subject right now, and has been at many times throughout his presidency. There is plenty of dissent in the USA.
If Russia gets their fingers deep enough into Ukraine, they will appoint oligarchs, they will suck the nation dry of resources, and they will make the nation a failed slave state. The economy will fail in all regards that don't help Russia.
And just like Mike said, just wait: Anything that makes Ukraine look utterly stupid and incapable of ruling itself is going to get blasted over every major media source in Russia.
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I'm actually disappointed in the Obama administration. Obama publicly warned Putin to withdraw his forces from Ukraine; he keeps drawing these lines but they're empty bluffs which is why even Senator McCain is laughing at him. He did the same thing with Assad and embarassed the U.S. after Assad continued to push Obama and Obama didn't stand up to his threats. The same situation is going on now except Putin could smell a bluff from a mile away. Plus the fact that Ukraine is practically at Russia's doorsteps makes things even more difficult for Obama to interfere.
Yes it is very disappointing. I don't know why Obama keeps making these statements.
Assuming that money in Ukraine funding protesters is coming from the USA is a little silly. There may be a lot. Ukraine is run by bribes and highly wealthy people, though. I'm sure many of them are funding different sides.
The USA giving cookies to Ukraine is obviously a public political statement.
The USA doesn't really have that kind of money right now. Like you said, we've had our fingers in other people's business for too long. The USA also isn't interested in Ukraine... not like it is in countries like Iran, Iraq, and Afghanistan at the moment.
Countries that would be more interested in preventing Russia from taking over Ukraine would be the larger Western Euro powers at this point.
Putin made an offer to basically bail the country out, which is basically him buying the country. The USA can't really match that. We are simply too in debt. You obviously haven't been reading about the plans in the USA to seriously cut our defense spending (among other things... we just never cut our defense spending) [DOUBLEPOST=1393797609][/DOUBLEPOST]It is possible that in an effort to support USA alliances with many western powers who are supporting the protests in Ukraine, and who are absolutely afraid of another USSR in any form, the USA has to make some kind of display in support of the movement. Just saying.
Assuming that money in Ukraine funding protesters is coming from the USA is a little silly. There may be a lot. Ukraine is run by bribes and highly wealthy people, though. I'm sure many of them are funding different sides.
The USA giving cookies to Ukraine is obviously a public political statement.
The USA doesn't really have that kind of money right now. Like you said, we've had our fingers in other people's business for too long. The USA also isn't interested in Ukraine... not like it is in countries like Iran, Iraq, and Afghanistan at the moment.
Countries that would be more interested in preventing Russia from taking over Ukraine would be the larger Western Euro powers at this point.
Putin made an offer to basically bail the country out, which is basically him buying the country. The USA can't really match that. We are simply too in debt. You obviously haven't been reading about the plans in the USA to seriously cut our defense spending (among other things... we just never cut our defense spending) [DOUBLEPOST=1393797609][/DOUBLEPOST]It is possible that in an effort to support USA alliances with many western powers who are supporting the protests in Ukraine, and who are absolutely afraid of another USSR in any form, the USA has to make some kind of display in support of the movement. Just saying.
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